[OT] 9/11 Pentagon Strike

[Chipwich]

I have a friend of 30 years who was working in the Pentagon that morning and dodged a fireball coming down the hallway. Although he lost a lot of
friends and colleagues that terrible morning, I'm sure that he wouldn't mind if I passed on a few specific questions that you have about that incident.

[omarza]

The following is only my opiniun and it might be wrong.

I dont think one can win in a war against terrorism... you can hunt the cilprits down or even attack those supporting them but the real danger guys
dont have a specific home... they are all over... and for everyone you take down there is another to replace them. On the other hand those terrorists
can cause more damage in a single day that a whole western military cause in one year probably... reason is beacuse the one party doesnt care about
the innocent civilians while the other does. I just hope and wish things like 9/11 will never happen again as I personally can not find the words to
describe how I feel about things like that. However I think we will never find an answer (solution) to problems like this.

I also think Ryanamur is correct with most of his analysis as some studies have been done regarding that which he mentioned. Everyone is entitled to
their opiniun tho but before forming opiniuns we shoiuld maybe have a look into history and the past and understand a bit more... that way we can form
a better opiniun. Again above is just my opiniuns and I am very open to other opiniuns.

[Ryanamur]

AeroJim wrote:
Ok, my turn, for the record im a 17 year old, US STUDENT, i gre up in the US, I come from a military family, my dad has been in the Air
Force for over 20 years and i live with him for a weeks, w/o for a weeks, a native of my home town died this week from a roadside bomb
so hell yes my emotions are high, im sorry ryanamur, but i am with sovek, but sovek i agree with Phil in saying, soldiers are some hell of
a human beings, and to treat them like pawn pisses me off, especially because not only are they fighting but also their families, but Phil,
Clinton also bombed bridges in the balkans and killed hundreds of innocent people, he allowed Columbia to manage the US and let
drugs over run the country, We blame Bush for 9/11, hell we blame Johnson for Vietnam, he was tossed into it, it was JFK who started
the Bay of Pigs and had Russia sneaking Nukes into Cuba when we had nukes sitting in the USSR's neighbor as well, 13 days of hell
that was, wasnt a live but im a history buff, Phil, Clinton's inaction killed more non-americans than americans where Mr. Bush may have
acted and we have lot soldiers overseas but sovek is right, soldiers are there to fight, national guard is there for disasters, clinton cut our
military nearly in half whereas Bush has built it back up. Bush has saved the lives of many afghans and iraqis, clinton killed thousands
of innocent, poverty striken balkans, and i know a few c-130 pilots from my dad's unit who were shot down over the balkans because of
clinton's inaction.

Hi AeroJim,

I know your feeling. As a former military officer myself, I'm well position to know the sacrifices that military personnel make. Whether they
be in the Canadian military, the US military or the Taliban! To be a soldier is to make the committment to fight for what must be attained
for the better good of your nation.

Do I believe that the US and the rest of the Western world should just sit and take the pounding. No. I don't. Do I believe that a full fledge
military deployment is the way to go to fix the problem. Certainly not. After 9/11, Bush had no choice but to order the deployment to
Afghanistan and then to Irak. He had to be seen as doing something. Afterall, the last time the US had been attacked by non-US entities
on their soil and on such a scale was Pearl Harbor.

Sovek wrote:
let me rephrase that, I dont think that the military people are mere pawns, but not using the military is stupid as well.

Good. But using the military the wrong way is also stupid as well. Bush should have never followed US opinion polls which demanded
swift military intervention. The problem is that he had to. It was either attack Afghanistan or face a coup at home. Can you imagine the
effect of a coup d'état in the US (ie the President assassinated) after 9/11. If it wouldn't have been Bush who'd have taken us down this
path, it would have been someone else.

The proper use of the military in guerilla warfare is of course a guerilla intervention. You can't win by doing a full blown out deployment.
Yes, you took Afghanistan. Yes, you removed the Talibans from power. Yes, you have 300 odd muslim prisonner at Guantanamo Bay
(some of which we're not sure if they are terrorists). Yes, you took Saddam down. Does that make the US safer? The problem with this
strategy is that the US went against the wrong people. Saddam and the Talibans were NOT terrorists. Yes, Saddam was a despot and
yes, the Talibans were housing terrorists. But neither of them WERE terrorists. By going against these two visible targets, you've
dispersed the terrorists and make them harder to find and to diffuse. Clearly not the right strategy. I'd like to think (and yes, there's nothing
like hindsight to critize these actions) that the proper strategy would be to go after the terrorist and not after figure heads. Bush should
have send in special ops team (CIA, airborne, whatever) to take them out. By attacking the whole country, you create so much turmoil that
the terrorists can just slip away unoticed.

Pagir wrote:
I disagree with most of you

IMHO, the real question about Bush / Clinton is: is the world safer now. It's not only about past casualties, but about casualties to come.
Under Clinton, the world had better chances of peace. The world now is almost already in a World War: don't forget North Korea, Iran,
Irak, Afghanistan. This attack on Irak was probably the most insane decision since... well since long.

Is the world a safer place now? No, it isn't... and I my opinion neither Bush (which I really can't stand) nor Clinton (which I think is an
hypocrite) are really to blame. What we are faced now is a side effect of the Cold War. So, if you really want to blame someone, blame
Brejnev and Gorbatchev for changing USSR

Like I said. We, human, can only think about our own self interest. Until we learn to see past our nose and learn to look at the greater
good of humanity, people will continue to die needlessly.

[SWAFO]

I'm just going to keep away from this convo entirely!

[DBE]

Same here!

I fully understand both sides: one of the reasons I'm not in politics..

[jboweruk]

Sorry to tell you but 9/'11 has been inevitable for 40 odd years. You helped create Israel, you armed her, you paid them to kill arabs, you
practically begged it to happen (don't take that the wrong way). IF America (and Britain so not entirely your own fault) had kept their noses
out of Mideast affairs, Al-Quaeda would not even exist, therefore 9/11 would never have happened. It all still comes down to Black Gold,
Oil. We created Israel to destabilise the MidEast, and now it has come back to burn our ass, and all your little "war on terror" will do, is
create more not less of these kind of attacks.

[pegase]

It's a long thread opening the main questions in our time, may be a major turn for whole humanity.

This flash animation sounds to me as a typical piece of revisionism or even negationism because:
If we put in doubt the fact that the pentagone was the target of terrorist attack, we have to put the same doubt about what striked the twin towers
at the same moment. We have to assume the films showing the planes hitting the buildings where tricks, last but not least we have to assume that the
authors of this "conspiracy" if so, did not have any trouble killing thousands citizens.

Like SaVas, I was not there and then cannot KNOW if it was a B757. Neither I know about the twins. But I can think a bit about the various versions I
read or hear:
Alphaone comes with a serious question:

what in the hell happened to AA flight 77 then???

. same question for the two planes hitting the
twins. And what happend then in the plane comming from Chicago ? why did it crashed if it was not when the passengers tried to take control over the
hijackers ?

To those telling "show me the wrecked parts of the plane before I can believe it was a plane strike" one can answer "show me the remaining part s of
a lift or stairs before I can believe there where buildings there" No sense...

So far, despite i don't have proofs of anything, I take these conspiracy theories for the same kind of stinking BS than those so called "theories"
denying holocaust.

It does not mean that I belong to the "Bush junior" fans club. It does not mean that I take this f... war in Iraq for the sruggle of the "good
against evil". I never believed that the goal of this poor move was "spreading freedom and democracy". Freedom and democracy don't fall from the
cargo bays of B52 comming frome the other corner of the world, but is the result of hard and long struggle of peoples to get it by themselves and for
themselves.

Before equating Muslim=terrorist, simply think about what has been Christianism in history. Any religion or politic ideology can be used the weird
way to fool people for nasty purpose. The problem is not with the religion or the polytic ideas, the problem is what is too often done in their behalf.

But once again, about this let's tell swf "document", whatever is my dislike for the current action of the US power on the world nowadays, I don't
want to go along with propaganda carried on by people who's agendas are more likely even worse.

[Chipwich]

IMHO, to accept that the Pentagon hit was not Flt. 77 would mean that you would have to ignore the mobile phone calls of the passengers on the flight
who were looking out of the window, Air Traffic Control tracking it on radar, and all of the personnel that would need to be behind a conspiracy, I.E.
the military, police, fire and rescue, the Federal Government. If there was a conspiracy, you might have some folks keep quiet, but not the whole
bloody mess of people.

Then what is the motive? We saw aircraft slamming into the twin towers with their parts falling on the streets below. So, there would need to be a
master plan of incredible order to carry out such an attack at the very same time as the twin towers. Take all of the many thousands of people
involved that would need to make it a cover up, and it is easily seen as a ludicrous proposition. I mean seriously.

Also, at least the US military has been fairly forthright in investigating itself, I.E. Abu Gharib and countless other incidents in Iraq and
Afghanistan, while the enemy slits the throats of its captives. Not quite the same standard is it?

I suppose Armstrong didn't walk on the moon either. I suppose when we go back there in, what is it 2016, we'll need to take some AL Qaeda for
verification.

[SWAFO]

*Sitting back and watching*

[AeroJim]

jboweruk wrote:
Sorry to tell you but 9/'11 has been inevitable for 40 odd years. You helped create Israel, you armed her, you paid them to kill arabs, you
practically begged it to happen (don't take that the wrong way). IF America (and Britain so not entirely your own fault) had kept their noses
out of Mideast affairs, Al-Quaeda would not even exist, therefore 9/11 would never have happened. It all still comes down to Black Gold,
Oil. We created Israel to destabilise the MidEast, and now it has come back to burn our ass, and all your little "war on terror"
will do, is
create more not less of these kind of attacks.

Ok, if we dont get involved the world flips out, i mean we keep our noses out of mid-east affairs and more mid-easterners die, please tell
me your kidding, the point of the UN is to help the world when in need (Mogadishu) and americans died there (under Clinton by the way
) and Phil, i have to disagree when you said the Talibans were not terrorists, because i very clearly remember seeing this image in
an afghani soccer stadium of women being hung and women being executed in the back of the heads by the taliban, i have a great book
which would let you know of the taliban rule which was a #1 bestseller for awhile it is an amazing book, let me find it quick for you, i really
recommend it, for everybody, i was moved by it, ill post the tiel when i find it, (not at my home pc right now)



Post Edited ( 09-30-05 02:55 )

[AeroJim]

ok here is the book, really should read it
"The Kite Runner" by Khaled Hosseini

[crowebird]

have my views but am going to keep out of it as well, now, wheres the little similey that is whistling minding his own business ?

[SWAFO]

crowebird wrote:
have my views but am going to keep out of it as well, now, wheres the little similey that is whistling minding his own business ?

I wish we had one of those too!

[jboweruk]

Well I sure know how I'd feel if you walked in here to take Blurgh outta power, I'd resist you with all my heart even though I hate the guy. It's
the principle of the thing.

[Jackal]

yes yes - i just meant to post that link for any curious parties. i never intended on reigniting a political debate lol...i shall stay as far from
this debate as i can too!