You say potato, I say potatoe... two views of FsP

[CowlFlapsOpen]

My son has Will, and the disk is sitting right here on my desk. I'll ask him his impressions...

Once again Savas and I are on the exact same page. Those are almost exactly the same parameters and rules under which I use FsP.

[WBHoenig]

I've been looking into it...

[DanSteph]

First sorry if I say dumb things I may be even completely "off topic" but I do not have time to read all the thread
By reading some lines I understand it's about a database editor but i'm not 100% sure it's the point here
(also sorry for my english it's 5h20am here, I'm fried)

My thought about "editing stuff"

The rules of "playing" with FsP are already really extended, you can run career or not start with
a normal financial bonus or a lower bonus, disable penalty and modify the goal and rules
of a company. This was done to satisfy the widest range possible of player, from hard core player
with 1x bonus and 0 crash allowed to people that love to get billion dollars each flight.

All this have a cost: time to develop and complexity. You cannot indefinitively extent the flexibilities of a things
otherwise you might end with a program that can also cook dinner and make a real coffee
Anyway FsP is already really flexible.

Of course as a new user you might start with a company and see later that you are not satisfied with the rules
you choosed, that's life there is always a learning period where one may start a test company then you
may start a serious game with a new company. Life is full of limitation one can't change chess rules in the
midle of the game one have to live with the fact that we must learn things before using them.

Now here's why there is no editor at this time, that's my reason of course.

First the time to devellop:
The most costly in time is the user interface, it may take me a couple of hours or one days to make a basic
database editor only for me but it can cost me weeks to make a user friendly editor. Of course I can make a basic one
but then only a few people would be allowed to change their base.

Second security:
As said user interface is costly to develop in time, as it touch your base a lot of test should be made to avoid
that people mess their database by entering wrong data or doing wrong stuff, from my experience the core of
a program is usually 10%-20% only and the rest is only dedicated to a securing and doing a user friendly interface.
Bypassing that mean that you may have a tool that can destroy your database. Odd.

Third validity of your base in regard of VA:
Allowing anyone to change the base would completely destroy the credibility of exported flight.
For now only a few aware people might cheat but if I do an editor all flight would now be suspect.

Fourth consistency:
The rules cannot be changed in the midle of the FsP game it might introduce odd bug and strange result
as you will have half report under one rules and another half under other rules.

Fifth my philosophy
Failure and effort is not anymore a valor in our society, now it's "all, immediately without difficulties" but we grow also
by making errors, we grow by making effort and having frustration, those are also things that make a responsible and
mature adult in my opinion. Our act DOES matter and one can't always correct things simply with one button or wait that other correct
them for us. If everything can be changed our act doesn't have anymore any importance and effort would be less rewarded.

Dumb example: knowing that you could not change the name of your company would render the choice
of a name and the creation more important, the time you'll create your company will carry more emotion and you'll be more carrefull.
"This is the company I'll run during hundred hours" You may perhaps recall its name during years with emotion, it would be less
the case if you can change the name and parameters dozen time. Your company's name doesn't really matter.

People that have done the effort to read the doc and learn FsP in the proper way have low chance to start a
company and see after 80 flying hours that this was not what they wanted and get frustrated. Of course I rarely read
any doc myself I do by trial and error and THEN I do a fast reading of the doc if I feel the need but I accept the fact that
it was my fault if I bypassed stuff.

You might think that sometime one can have unfair things happening but again this is life, life is NOT fair
we must learn to live with this fact and continue our efforts

In brief I'm not convinced at all that an editor worth the time spent to make it and would not destroy
some important points listed above. I do even things that as FsP is more pointed toward mature people
most users doesn't really feel the need for it.

Dan



Post Edited ( 01-18-06 05:58 )

[Covoxer]

Is there really a definition of 'cheating' with FsP?

Yes. Editing things that were intentionally ciphered by the developer is a cheat.
Dan defines this.

[SaVas]

Covoxer wrote:

Is there really a definition of 'cheating' with FsP?

Yes. Editing things that were intentionally ciphered by the developer is a cheat.
Dan defines this.

OK I can agree with that, but I would think most users would have no idea how to edit that which requires a programming background or
extensive knowledge of how to edit the script for FsP.

I personally would have not the slightest clue, and base my thoughts on laymen like me who can only work with the parameters that FsP
allows me to edit - Starting with gobs of money or virtually no money. Turning off various penalties that the software allows me to, etc.

So, yes, when you get into editing the program script of FsP I suppose it is cheating but again, it basically only cheats the user and
unless in a VA or online flying, not the others who use FsP.

[Covoxer]

Ha, ha, SaVas!
That's exactly why it was ciphered!
So that noone could edit it and cheat this way.

[SaVas]

I wouldn t edit it anyway. the only penalties I have turned off are those that are either affected by my wide range of aircraft I use, or ones
that could be issues from FS crashes.

Other than that I bought FsP as a means to immerse myself in a new area of simming which it has done above any expectations I had
*grins*

[jboweruk]

Name change should be editable. After all airlines in real life do change their name British Airways wasn't always BA you know.

[burkino_026]

Hello everyone. This post really surprised me. Great said all of you.

A really good point is the one Cowlflaps has made. The difference from Gamers and Simmers.
I feel myself as a Simmer or someone who is interested in addon and programs only to simulate something and have a virtual enviornment in which do
things. I bought Flight Simulator cause I really love aviation world and I badly wanted to see how it is like to fly a plane. Then I expanded my
thoughts to flying different planes in different places and conditions also. I like to fly Big Jets like 747-400 in Busy airports and asirpaces. I m
currently a British Airways Virtual Pilot (BAV) and I love it and thank them for accepting me in their restricted range of great pilots and staff
member who are very friendly. I fly PMDG 747-400 in long hauls routes which make me have to drink lots of coffee :-) and I fly into places I always
wanted to see like Australia, America, Caribbean, Japan, Asia in general and so on... But on the other hand I also love bush piloting. I love how
flying a small GA aircfat feels, flying into hazardous conditions. Landing anywhere, see breathtaking scenery and learn precious flying skills.
The point here is:
-Gamers like to have goals
-Simmers like to have tools to enhance their gaming experience

I totally agree with the facts that allowing lots of editing in a game can actually riun it because if a game would allow to set strenghts of your
character to maximum it would be too easy to end it. People would abuse the freedom and would eventually get bored and protest that they have wasted
money on that product.

But here is the point. I think that denying the freedom to everyone is something wrong to do. This is like in real life when because of some people I
have to give up something good or even never see it. I dont want to. But it's life and this happens I'm afraid.
What I think is that FsP for gamers should be like a normal game, with goals to reach within parameters set and it already is and im fine with it.
What should be for simmers is a tool to enhance their gaming experience and FsP does this. But there are limitations that make simmers wonder why
programmer put them.

DOnt take me wrong, I love FsP and I always make ad to my friend for it, i love the way it works and about this post i love it as well as it is
suitable for both gamers and simmers. But then comes to what I would like to see personally....
I use FsP only as a environment upgrade. This means to enhance sound ambience in the cockpit with announcements and having to think about passengers,
to load them, to carry them and to make them comfortable intto the cabin. It makes FS completely different to me, not just my plane standing on the
ground ready to go but something more to think . I dont fly with FsP to reach a goal, or i might do it if the goal is having fun. I hit load flight
whenever i want to take off! Sometimes is with BAV i created with B747 and 400 passengers. Other times is a Learjet with VIP on a corporation and
other times is simply with my Baron 58 with no pax r cargo, just me and my plane with Cyber Air company set wchich has nothing to do with the flight
itself.
Well, this means I dont really care about the database, the financial issues, the flight log and so on. I do think they are wonderfully modeled but as
a simmer I dont want a program to tell me what I should do and how I should do it. I want to be able to fly whatever I want, wherever I prefer and so
on. I dont want the limitation of the money and the flying hours. And because of these reasons I dont pay attentions to career mode as i always check
it off when creating a company, and when creating one I set everything to lots of money like 1,000,000,000 $ on the scenario thing. This allows me to
fly whatever i want to fly in that moment even if im C1 and buy whatever aircraft and so on. This has many reasons has said before:

-I started flying FS in 1999, i now should have about 400 hrs and I dont want to start again from scratch in C1 and having to fly cessna for 1000 hrs
and points to get to 747. But am I less professional than someone that uses career mode? All of my 400 hrs are flown under basic FAA rules (not
everyone both because i dont know them all and becoz of FS limitations) and realism of aicraft for example having to personally fly somewhere, like If
i want to make Los Angeles-London on a 747 i firstly have to get to Los Angeles from where i am nopw in the simulator), so it seems to me that i am
enough professional in what i do

-Being a pilot for an airline is not just earning hours and points after a flight and running an airline is not just earning money and reputation
after a flight. FsP world is like this, not that is a critic as it is a wonderful program as already said but I have to state it. I 'd like this part
to be enhanced as it is unrealistic or maybe too flat to go thru. It's wonderful for people who just wish to advance and get better with time, that is
simply perfect, but it's not meant for me that the only thing i want to be better is my virtual flying experience, and maybe the only goal.
There should be features like passenger rich areas and poor areas, like Los Angeles area should be full of passenger and small towns or isolated
airports have few passengers or not at all. So not based on reputation but also on areas. Maybe i am asking too much but being able to be up to date
with period. I mean that after 9/11 passenger number is dramatically lowered, now it's getting bigger again and forecast are quite good and maybe hard
to fulfill as passenger number is going to rise and need the development of aicraft like A380 and B787 with a more efficient trip cost/earnings.

-The enormous difference there is between flying an airline and flying bush pilot. If you are simply an aviator with a commercial flying licence you
can obtain money out of your flight. All you need is a plane and passengers/cargo. This thing cant be done in FsP unless you set up a company, buy a
plane etc...

Yes, I am asking really too much I know but the point is, this addon, for how wonderful can be, is more for gamers that only goal is getting better
and seeing the numbers rise, not much for the total simmer like me that goal is playing in a virtual environment that simulate for how possible the
real life.

My conclusion, for how hard can be, is that Dan should release an editor to alter database values, and the addon itslef shouldnt get more flexible
that already is or it will result in gamers altering everything to ease their game and get to the top, having lots of money for doing nothing and
having C23 or maximum without having to fly the hrs needed. I am fine with using FsP as it is and I will keep waiting and look for a addon that makes
what i have listed before. I am glad to have bought a copy of FsP as it changed the way I play FS forever, thanks Dan, but thogh, this program didnt
only make me enjoy FS better, it also opened my eyes on lots of things.

I apologise for long Post. If you just scrolled to the end to avoid spending hunderd hrs to read it just read this:
I believe that FsP shoudlnt allow editing of core fils like the database and penalties and stuff. I agree with basic editing of names of airline but
actually dont like it so much as Dan made me focus on the point that you always have to test something and then learn from your mistakes and then you
will be able to start seriusly with what you have learnt and sure u'll be more careful, but sometimes it is useful changing something you want to
change like a simple name or a description, some little details like these ones.

Thanks for your attention :-)

[burkino_026]

Another long post I know. People who dont have time should avoid reading it. I suggest You only read it if you are really interested, I dont want to
making you waste time with me ;-)

What I think is that there should be more space for Total simmers like me. Wherever I turn my head I see games which have beautiful graphics and game
enginges that require TURBOCHARGED PCs to run it, I imagine running one of those new games with a big machine with TURBINE behind it that makes a jet
engine sound when turned on.
I dont really like the way things are done. Well from this i can see that there are either lots of gamers or programmers that dont want to get too far
with the game. This has nothing to do with FsP, it's just my thought about the whole thing.
I wish to see for once a game that is not actually just a game but a real simulation. You call FS a flight simulator? well, I dont know, without
downloading Gigabytes of stuff you would only get a plain ambient with no life nor nothing to do for how I see it. Yes, I see FS world as a lifeless,
meaningless world. What I wish to see in the future is games that actually deserve the name as simulator, games where you are put into the environment
of the simulated thing.
Few example are for FS programs that allows to keep a storyline. I mean that you can get to your local airport in FS and check the info thru a special
user interface that gathers for you weather and other info. Like you get to a local field and you are presented with a interface that lets yu choose
flight briefings, weather reports, field information, Fservice station and other things. Then you could have your plane ready. You could have an
option in the game itself that allows you to keep your owning into an economical profile having to ear money and buy a plane. Once you are into your
cockpit have breathtaking sounds and features other than usual basic commands. Things like airconditioning, maybe some cold air or hot air and heating
in GA, wipers, tools like weather radar and GPS to carry... I wish to be able to actually "see" the failures, i mean i always make my walk out for
nothing as you cant see a failure from your plane into FS, so whats the point? I do it coz i like to but not becoz there is an issue. So i wish to see
the failures, maybe scratches and dirt on your plane and then actually bumps and holes into the fuselage, dirt into the engines... I would like to see
other traffic and why not, virtual people boarding their aircaft. I would like to see my plane suffer nature conditions, i mean that if it's raining
brakes will be an issue just like heavy rain can affect your performance. But also cold and hot environments. What I would really love would be seeing
that after a flight my plane will have issues about hrs flown. I mean, i want the program to keep track of what i do, maybe when you save flight the
program records these things. The airplane engines having hrs flown, maybe you had a hard landing, the gear isnt damaged but the tyres are getting
worn. With hrs flown the engines loose performance as they become older. I recall now something read somwhere that normal cessnas never or really
rarely are 100% as shown into the reference page, this because they have an age, they might be several years old, and this is a big issue in flight
performance, it can change lots of things from Gross wight and there fore payload, to runway lenght for takeoff and climb, cruise and range and fuel
efficiency!
Then I wold like to be able to manage a economical page that keeps track of what i do and therefore I have to pay when refueling the aircraft, maybe
with a popoup message when I approach a Fuel pump asking me how much fuel I want to load on.
This would be great for bush pilots. There are lots of other things I would like to say....

For arline envoronment everything would be based on the company as for FsP, but with lot more issues
-more implemented passenger and cargo. I mean that these elements should not be more only with more reputation but with some factors like season, time
of day, location, period, weather....
I can see that for now is all based on reputation and % of maximum capacity for the plane. I i load a flight with a 747 and i got 100% reputation,
good pricing etc, i might get presented with 350 pax.. I cancel it and reload it with a Learjet or a 10pax jetplane. I am presented with 6 pax. Now do
your calcs and you'll see that on both planes the % is 80% of capacity, either if i am flying a 747 or a Learjet. Now this is unrealistic, very simple
and direct, but unrealistic, what there should be in a realistic simulation is a system that take into account the factors listed above and maybe some
others when looking at bush pilot and not only reputation and costs.
-A more detailed company manager. Running an airline is not a game, it's actually difficult and very complex. There are lot of factors involved. Even
when looking at very small company that only own couple of Beech B1900 or similar you are taliking about factors like:
> passenger demand. You dont only have passengers that will fly anywhere. You might see a specific request for a location as a result of season, time,
period, weather... Example in winter, during peak time like 8:00 am or 5:00 PM there are lots of workers and business men needing a transportation.
During seasonal sports there is a surplus of passengers that want to go to the location of sports. Lets dont forget summer holidays, those exotic
locations will be fully booked in summer periods but almost desert during low season.
> Aircraft schedule. There isnt just you as only pilot flying in that moment. The airline has to set up a schedule, unless we are talking of owning
oneplane only. There should be several pilots, at least two per plane if we are talikgn about a plane that requires two like normal airliners. Having
to set up a schedule is not a joke, it requires every aicraft to have a specific schedule, then merging together to make it smooth especially when
they operates in the same airport as you have to take into account that the airport could be a busy one.
> human factor. Pilots dont like of air! You have to pay them! Money doent come off the trees so you have to destinate a part of your earnings as a
airline to pilots and also the rest of the crew or who will serve those hungry passengers?
> advanced stuff. Fusions with other airlines, bankruptcy, Airlines alliances and codeshares... These advanced features bring revenues but require
advanced knowlede of the thing!

Finally if you are a pilot into an airline but dont want the fuss of running the enitre airline?
Well, there should be an automatic feature that actually manages the airline for you with only a few clicks just to set up the behaviour of that
airline that could be a low cost jet airline or a simple small GA parcel service. The behaviour of the two could be similar in some areas but totally
different in others.
Then the possibilioty to run an airline between friends or even a VA online!
This would be a great addon to the FS community.
It needs several factors though:
> Sharing! This is the more important part of the whole thing as if there isnt a file sharing a VA wont run smooth, especially with economical mode
set to on.
There must be a feature that allows the user to export flight information regarding economical aspects like passenger but also human like crew and
pilot himself, and also technical as the plane wont live forever. This information can be sent after a flight or even while it is in progress via
ACARS system or something. Then this information would be processed and would update the entire database. The company manager could actually monitor
how aicraft perform and you'll have to set how pilots fly different aicraft io mean if N565YH is being flew by John Johnson from Los Angeles to London
Mike Patterson cant' fly the same plane at the same time. Also if Mike wants to fly that plane after John has landed in London then Mike has to get to
London to be able to board it and fly with it. Specific aircraft will be travelling real time and pilots would have to attain to the schedule offered
by the VA. This also mean that pilots are assinged flight detaild like passenger numbers and stuff. This could work in a way that the system
automatically loads the payload into the user aicraft (like FsP does but more advanced) and flight details are shown into the kneeboard as flight
briefing and log.

Hope I didnt write too much But i had to say these things as I think they are the future of the simmers like me. If there are others like me,
sometimes i feel a bit lonely :-(
I really hope the things i wrote would mae sense to somebody and actually do something. I will personally do my part as i always have done.

Thanks everybody again for your attention :-)

[Covoxer]

Name change should be editable. After all airlines in real life do change their name British Airways wasn't always BA you know.

In reality airlines DO NOT change their names. It happens only when they are overtaken or merge with others.
But merger means that new company is created, with it's new reputation. Starting all over actually.
You can do in in FsP by creating a new company with any reputation you want, and any money you want then transfer pilots and that's it.
You have your BA from BOAC

Oh, and the reason of RW airlines to not just change their name is the same as the reason why you don't want to create new company in
FsP - they do not want to lost their reputation!
Simple enough I guess?

[skenmy]

Covoxer wrote:

Name change should be editable. After all airlines in real life do change their name British Airways wasn't always BA you know.

In reality airlines DO NOT change their names. It happens only when they are overtaken or merge with others.
But merger means that new company is created, with it's new reputation. Starting all over actually.
You can do in in FsP by creating a new company with any reputation you want, and any money you want then transfer pilots and that's it.
You have your BA from BOAC

Oh, and the reason of RW airlines to not just change their name is the same as the reason why you don't want to create new company in
FsP - they do not want to lost their reputation!
Simple enough I guess?

Uhh, if an airline changes it's name then it will advertise and make people aware of the change - so they won't lose any reputation. Changinga company
name won't allow you to get more money or anything like that, so it hardly a cheat.

[Covoxer]

Uhh, if an airline changes it's name then it will advertise and make people aware of the change - so they won't lose any reputation.

How many big companies do you know that have changed their name just like that?

Advertisement costs a lot of money. No one would spend them without a reason. Besides it will not get to all company customers
anyway. And the most important reputation problem - most people are suspicious enough to be sure that company have problems if it
changes it's name.

Though, company may want to change it's name in case it has a bad reputation. But this means exactly wha is starting a new company in
FsP.

In reality, name and reputation are linked, so is in the FsP.

Changinga company name won't allow you to get more money or anything like that, so it hardly a cheat.

It is easy a cheat!
You could fly a career for one company, then rename it and upload all flights for another one.
Wouldn't it be a cheat?
Or you may try to fool someone that you have many great companies while you have one.
A lot of possibilities to cheat this way!

[skenmy]

Covoxer wrote:
It is easy a cheat!
You could fly a career for one company, then rename it and upload all flights for another one.
Wouldn't it be a cheat?
Or you may try to fool someone that you have many great companies while you have one.
A lot of possibilities to cheat this way!

In which case it is my opinion that you take it far too seriously - it is just an addon for flight simulator, not a real-life money generator., So
what if you like to imagine you have 100 C23 pilots in 10 companies all with 100% ratings, you are only fooling yourself.

[Covoxer]

In which case it is my opinion that you take it far too seriously

It's not me who decides what is cheat and what is not!
I'm not making rules here. Dan does.