Posky A330/340 and landing crash

[Grome]

It looks like that: 100 Ft is enough to compensate the speed and the Vspeed. When you rize the nose to about 10 degrees , your speed lowers
dramatically. It is obvious that the vertical speed starts to rise. So, the task is to find the balance. As I can see from the flight reports, the
touchdown speeds lie between 130 and 120 Kt and the vertical speed lies between 'Kiss' and 'Nice' Ah, when I write 10 degrees I mean the INITIAL
situation. One should correct it, observing the gauges. Anuway, on short final/flare one should balance the vertical speed, the horisontal speed and
the bank angle. That what I mean describing my own technique (very cheating, huh ) )

B.t.w., how should I understand '.FLY it onto the runway...' Could you describe the technique?

[Covoxer]

B.t.w., how should I understand '.FLY it onto the runway...' Could you describe the technique?

When you fly heavy on the glideslope you should have speed around 140-160KIAS, pitch around 5 degree and vertical speed about 300-
500 fpm. You do not need to change these by flaring. Just continue until tuchdown. Vertical speed is good enough for landing.

[olseric]

Covoxer described it perfectly, but I wanted to add something else...

Remember how you fly...rate of descent is controlled with your throttle, speed is controlled with pitch. With that said, once you have the
aircraft stabilized on approach, use the throttle to keep you on the glidepath and when you wish to slow your rate of descent a few FPM for
touchdown, just increase the throttle.

[detpilot]

Covoxer and olseric, while your landing techniques are close, they aren't completely correct. Firstly, you do flare airliners. Not nearly to the
extent that you do a light aircraft, but there is a slight roundout before touchdown. Normally, you'll fly down the glide path aith about 3 degrees of
pitch, then just as you enter ground effect, you'd pull the power to idle. I'm talking about while you are in the 20-10 foot range, not over the
numbers as you would in a light aircraft. As you pull the power out, smoothly add about another 2 degrees to arrest the increased descent rate that
the power reduction caused. You will not need to flare much, as ground effect also helps to reduce the rate of descent. While you can touchdown safely
at 300-500 fpm, and it is recommended in windy conditions to get the plane on the ground quick, but on calm weather days you want to touch down in the
100-200 fpm range. Also, using pitch to control airspeed and power to control altitude works for light aircraft, but not as well for larger ones, esp.
jets. If you get slow in a jet, you add power instead of nosing over (which is what you'd do in a light aircraft). You fly the speeds in a jet, and to
do that, you use power to maintain speed. Using power to control altitude and pitch to control speed is considered "seat of the pants" flying, and is
a no-no in transport category aircraft. PLus, the spool time of turbine engines makes it harder as well. Good luck, and happy landings!

[detpilot]

After reading over my previous post, it seemed very agressive. I did not mean to be overly critical, or attack anyone. Just trying to help these guys
learn how to land correctly. No offense was meant to olseric or covoxer.

[Covoxer]

Covoxer and olseric, while your landing techniques are close, they aren't completely correct. Firstly, you do flare airliners.

Sure! I do allways flare airlines. That's why my touchdown vs is around 100ft/m not 500 as it would be if I fly into the runway! I was JUST
EXPLAINING THAT TECHNIQUE!!!
And have never said that I'm using it all the time or that someone should.

Not nearly to the
extent that you do a light aircraft, but there is a slight roundout before touchdown. Normally, you'll fly down the glide path aith about 3
degrees of
pitch, then just as you enter ground effect, you'd pull the power to idle. I'm talking about while you are in the 20-10 foot range, not over the
numbers as you would in a light aircraft. As you pull the power out, smoothly add about another 2 degrees to arrest the increased
descent rate that
the power reduction caused. You will not need to flare much, as ground effect also helps to reduce the rate of descent. While you can
touchdown safely
at 300-500 fpm, and it is recommended in windy conditions to get the plane on the ground quick, but on calm weather days you want to
touch down in the
100-200 fpm range.

Well thank you for explanation, but I do prefer to have abou 0-1 degrees of pich at descend to the runway. It would give me more margin
for flare.

Also, using pitch to control airspeed and power to control altitude works for light aircraft, but not as well for larger ones, esp.
jets. If you get slow in a jet, you add power instead of nosing over (which is what you'd do in a light aircraft). You fly the speeds in a jet,
and to
do that, you use power to maintain speed. Using power to control altitude and pitch to control speed is considered "seat of the pants"
flying, and is
a no-no in transport category aircraft. PLus, the spool time of turbine engines makes it harder as well.

Agree. And I was not talking about it again!
I suppose this argue goes to Eric?

What is it, that you are trying to proove anyway?
Just read all previous posts carefully before you jump on someone else...

After reading over my previous post, it seemed very agressive. I did not mean to be overly critical, or attack anyone. Just trying to
help these guys
learn how to land correctly. No offense was meant to olseric or covoxer.

Appologies accepted.
But I still do recommend you to read all previous posts in this thread with greater care to make sure that you aren't saying well known
things out of the context.
Thanks.

[detpilot]

But I still do recommend you to read all previous posts in this thread with greater care to make sure that you aren't saying well known
things out of the context.

I will do just that. I know I tend to be long-winded, and from your post (and olseric's), it's obvious that you know what you are doing. The point of
my post was to build on yours, and point out some minor differences to help people who have no clue what they're doing. What may be well known to you,
is not to others. I was a beginner before too, and I know how challenging this can be. So, once again, I meant no offense, and I'll read over the
thread again. I'm sorry for the arrogant nature of my post, I was just typing and not really paying attention to how I was phrasing things.

[Covoxer]

To detpilot:

Whatever!
That's what forums are for!

[pagir]

I'm happy to see a strong discussion with civil manners. Keep it this way!



Pagir

[olseric]

Aye...no offense taken.

I have watched enough A330's land though at KDTW (what else do you do waiting for a connection?) to notice that they don't flare and if
they do, it's such a minute amount that the human eye doesn't seem to notice.

I think the amount of flare is proportional to the catergory of aircraft. Watch a Cessna and you'll see a bunch, watch an A333/B744, etc
and you won't even notice it.

Not saying you're wrong, nor am I saying I'm right, but all I'm saying is there are different techniques which I'm sure work all equally well
depending upon the situation.

PLus, the spool time of turbine engines makes it harder as well.

Just wanted to make a quick comment on this...you are 100% right. That's why heavies have been be flown proactive as opposed to
reactive. Get behind 'em and you're in trouble.

[Covoxer]

to notice that they don't flare and if they do, it's such a minute amount that the human eye doesn't seem to notice.

To decrease vs from 500 to 100 fpm about 2-3 degree of flare is usually required.
And yes, it is almost impossible to notice visually 2 degrees rotation on the moving airliner in reality.
It means for example, that the nose of 777 will rise about 2-3 feet which is less than it's nose gear diameter.
I think it's wery likely that you may just do not notice this. At least I wouldn't notice this on such a huge, vertically moving object.
What do you think?

[olseric]

I think I agree, John.

All I can say is I've flown the A330 and the DC-10 enough on FS to this point that the only time I actually have to flare it more than a degree
is if I made a mistake somewhere along the lines required correction.

Like I said above, it's all about staying ahead of it and anticipating how it will react...adding a little power to it just before you touchdown to
arrest the sink rate and then cutting it about 20 AGL.

This may be of some use to people - From IVAO:

http://www.ivao.aero/training/tutorials/...avy_en.htm

[Covoxer]

Like I said above, it's all about staying ahead of it and anticipating how it will react...

Sure it is!
Sometimes you don't even need to flare at all. Sometimes a little bit.
Adding thrust to reduce vs is another way. Quite workable by the way