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+--- Thread: Insufficient fuel reserves penalty (/showthread.php?tid=8606)
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Insufficient fuel reserves penalty - DavidK - 23-11-2010
I see this penalty has been discussed previously, but I'm not sure / clear about why it's still applied once you've diverted to another destination
(FSPassengers Flight > "Cancel destination", I think, in FSP's in-flight menu).
After visibility fell to zero while on IFR final to Cork, Ireland, I was able to divert not once but twice. First alternate was IFR northwest to Kerry, but visibility again fell to zero below 1,600 ft; then IFR further north for a visual landing at Galway, where (thankfully) the fog cleared before I was facing a swim off the west coast of Ireland.
So it wasn't very nice to receive a penalty for insufficient fuel reserves when I'd included enough to follow an IFR approach and final at not one but
two other airports -- and, according to the FSP flight report, still have 12 min flying time left after shutdown at the gate.
David K
Post Edited ( 11-23-10 21:52 )
Re: Insufficient fuel reserves penalty - Joeflyer - 24-11-2010
Rules of the air apply. You are required to have enough fuel to reach your planned destination and 45 minutes of fuel thereafter for IFR flight. Those
are the regs. in the U.S. anyway. Within FsP, you should plan on landing with at least 45 minutes of fuel remaining so you won't get a penalty.
Therefore, if you planned for 2 hours worth of fuel but your planned route is 1 hour 45 minutes, for instance, you will be penalized for not having
enough required IFR reserves for the flight. If you didn't cancel the destination in FsP but landed elsewhere, you will get a penalty anyway. I'm sure
you are aware of it.
I'm wondering if you have Active Sky that can give you frequent weather updates. Makes planning much easier and you will have an idea of what to
expect before you depart. Yet, I know that conditions change over time, so what you plan for doesn't always pan out in the end. I've had that
frequently in real life IFR flying
Re: Insufficient fuel reserves penalty - Shaun Patterson - 24-11-2010
I know this is unrealistic, but I try and fit as much fuel on the aircraft as possible without going over the Max. Gross Weight, but I only do
this with real world weather in Autumn/Winter, when british weather is ****, rainy, low vis, overcasts etc
Re: Insufficient fuel reserves penalty - Joeflyer - 24-11-2010
What's unrealistic about adding as much fuel as possible...especially for bad weather scenarios?
Re: Insufficient fuel reserves penalty - DavidK - 25-11-2010
Quote:Joeflyer wrote:I forgot to include an attempt to land at Shannon in my original description.
Rules of the air apply. You are required to have enough fuel to reach your planned destination and 45 minutes of fuel thereafter for IFR
flight......
So, what happened seems to me to be a "Catch-22" situation. I included more than enough fuel for another 45 minutes flight after Cork -- enough, in fact, to try three further ATC-controlled approaches at three different airports 80 km (Kerry) then 70 km (Shannon) then 65 km (Galway) apart and still have 12 minutes fuel remaining at shutdown -- and yet I was penalised for insufficient fuel reserves. I don't understand how that can amount to insufficient fuel reserves...?
Quote:....I'm wondering if you have Active Sky that can give you frequent weather updates....Sounds intriguing... I'll look it up on the Web.
Thanks for the pointer.
David
Post Edited ( 11-25-10 20:15 )
Re: Insufficient fuel reserves penalty - Joeflyer - 26-11-2010
David, you miss the point about how FsP treats fuel reserves. FsP "looks" at how much fuel remains in your aircraft once you set the parking brake
after landing. It doesn't care where you actually landed (unless of course you didn't land at planned destination
) If your aircraft doesn't haveat least 45 minutes of fuel remaining, you will be penalized for not having the required reserves. That's why fuel planning is so crucial in the FsP
world. Besides, 12 minutes remaining is fuel critical in any airplane.
Re: Insufficient fuel reserves penalty - DavidK - 26-11-2010
Quote:......Besides, 12 minutes remaining is fuel critical in any airplane.I agree -- the next destination would've been Galway Bay!
But, just so I understand correctly, having diverted from the scheduled destination (Cork) and then used most of the reserves to reach Galway,
would I have been reprimanded in real life?
David
Re: Insufficient fuel reserves penalty - Joeflyer - 27-11-2010
Quote:DavidK wrote:
Quote:......Besides, 12 minutes remaining is fuel critical in any airplane.I agree -- the next destination would've been Galway Bay!
But, just so I understand correctly, having diverted from the scheduled destination (Cork) and then used most of the reserves to reach Galway,
would I have been reprimanded in real life?
David
If flying professionally, you bet you would...likely to the tune of getting fired for being fuel critical in the first place
Flying Part 91 IFR would be harder to find out unless you reported to approach or tower that a missed approach is negative due to being fuel critical
on the first approach attempt
Re: Insufficient fuel reserves penalty - DavidK - 28-11-2010
Quote:Joeflyer wrote:In that case, logic suggests that every flight carries as much fuel as possible... and even then, if circumstances mean you leave less than 45 mins remaining, too bad -- you're fired!
If flying professionally, you bet you would...likely to the tune of getting fired for being fuel critical in the first place
Obviously, there's still something I don't understand... and another thought, for the sake of realism, is that if a critical fuel level puts your job in jeopardy, the FSP penalty should at least be losing enough points to cause a demotion..?
David
Post Edited ( 11-28-10 01:02 )
Re: Insufficient fuel reserves penalty - gbapache - 28-11-2010
Dear Dave,
In real life the 45 min.reserve is life or death. It's not there for you to make game points. Look at your weather and plan accordingly.
1. Don't kill the cattle because you ran out of fuel.
2. Don't lose your ticket because you didn't have enough fuel according to THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post Edited ( 11-28-10 14:54 )
Re: Insufficient fuel reserves penalty - DavidK - 30-11-2010
Well, I arrived in the vicinity of Cork about halfway into what became a 2h59m flight. So I had about twice the 45 mins reserve. But I get a penalty
when I finally find suitable conditions in which to land, still with 12 mins reserve. How about a commendation for fuel management rather than a
penalty or sacking?
David
Re: Insufficient fuel reserves penalty - Leftcoaster - 30-11-2010
Just $0.02 but where fuel is concerned FsP penalizes you for poor decision making and rightly so.
Ironic because FsP provides you will all the data you will ever need to fuel plan accurately and safely. The end-flight reports provide
average cruise speed which allow realistic calculation of flight times and fuel consumption in climb and cruise that allow accurate
forecasting of fuel burn.
You do not say what you were flying and where you departed from but it is interesting that you ended up eating into your last reserves far
too early, There is often a tendency to cut fuel in short hall flights but realistically (the professional pilots here can shoot this down if they
like, it applies to classic propliners and early turbojets however) there is a absolute minimum of fuel to be carried and it is sometimes
necessary to offload passengers and or cargo so that you arrive at short haul destinations at or below maximum LANDING wieght.
There are lots of fuel planning guides out there, this method works as well as most:
En route fuel = (dist/cruise speed) * cruise fuel burn per hour * 1.15 for headwinds
Diversion fuel = (dist to alternate/cruise speed) * cruise fuel burn per hour * 1.15 for headwinds
Holding reserve = cruise fuel burn per hour * .75
Emergency reserve = climb fuel burn per hour *.75
Climb fuel = climb fuel burn per hour * time to cruise alt (in hours)
Taxi and take off fuel is incorporated into enroute fuel for this method because climb fuel is calculated seperately.
It looks like you only loaded enroute fuel plus a bit extra which you used going to your first alternate.
Sometimes your alternate is your departure airport so double your enroute fuel. Holding fuel should never be used unless ATC places
you in a holding pattern. Emegency fuel should never be used period.
Good job getting her down in one piece but do not expect a hero biscuit for solving a problem that lack of your planning created.
If you fail to plan, you plan to fail and FsP punishes you for this, just as it should.
Cheers
Post Edited ( 11-30-10 20:18 )
Re: Insufficient fuel reserves penalty - DavidK - 01-12-2010
Thanks for your input, Leftcoaster. I was flying IFR from EGGD (Bristol, England) to EICK (Cork, Ireland) in a classic two-engine turboprop, the
Hawker Siddeley (HS) 748, but ended up landing at EICM (Galway) after IFR attempts at EIKY (Kerry) and then EINN (Shannon).
I did the sums in your planning method and suddenly realised that yes, when I took on fuel, I must've thought I'd included what you describe as
Holding and Emergency fuel. At least, that's the amount the shortfall is suspiciously near.
I think the steps in your method are better -- e.g. separating holding and emergency fuel -- so I'll try using it from now on.
Best wishes,
David
Re: Insufficient fuel reserves penalty - Leftcoaster - 01-12-2010
Salute David
If you're using Rick Piper's HS 748 it shows good taste in propliners!
When short or medium hauling I generally load enough fuel to divert back to the departure airport; this preserves your options since
realistically you can change your final destination in flight . Depending on the plane, this may be payload limiting which in FsP (and real
life dispatching) reduces your income BUT provides the most flexibility in unstable weather conditions.
Using classic propliners and early gas-guzzling jets in FS can really teach detailed fuel planning but the learning process is sometimes
painful. An eastbound "non-stop" polar flight from the west coast of North America to London or Paris might have five airports planned as
diversion airports should mother nature not cooperate with decent tailwinds. Knowing exactly how much time you need and how much
time you still have can take some work doing the calculations on paper with a navigation slide rule, electronic or actual.
I use the freeware FS Metar to check weather at destination and alternate airports and generally make a decision at TOD on whether to
continue to destination in anticipation of holding until conditions clear (or until holding fuel is gone) OR diverting to a new alternate airport
using diversion fuel plus any remaining route fuel OR diverting to the initial diversion airport while retaining your holding reserve.
Fly Safe!
C
Re: Insufficient fuel reserves penalty - DavidK - 02-12-2010
Thanks, Leftcoaster. Yes, it's the Rick Piper HS 748 and yes, I really like it. I'll probably have to start over learning to fly a jet (not that I
became proficient before being lured away).
I haven't got anywhere near thinking about five alternates, which is probably just as well given my occasional fuelling slip-up. (This most recent one
was the third, I think, since I started using FSPassengers. This time, though, I thought the need to try three alternates before landing might
exonerate me from the penalty.) I don't think I've flown more than around 500 nm in any one flight.
FS Metar sounds intriguing. Thanks for mentioning. I have Joeflyer's suggestion of Active Sky to follow up as well. Now that it's wintry, yes, I can see that waiting until in range of a destination's ATIS transmission leaves decision-making a bit late.
David
Post Edited ( 12-02-10 05:14 )