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Fuel! - savage - 04-02-2006
Quote:Pilot Bonus points: 575 points
You made a very nice landing. (+50)
Perfect Flight, no problems and very satisfied passengers. (+150)
You landed at the scheduled airport. (+30)
Precise arrival time at destination.(00h05:25 difference) (+100)
Long flight (04h54) without using time acceleration, without any problems and with satisfied passengers. (+245)
Pilot's Penalty points: -300 points
Flight regulations require that you have sufficient fuel reserves upon landing (45 mn); you only had reserves for 00h28 of flight. (-300)
Still have a nice 11.5 kLbs in my tanks, more than enough for 45 minutes. A VERY good example of what I was talking about in my
previous posts... This is going to drive me to stop using FSP all together... Flippen unfair.
Re: Fuel! - WBHoenig - 04-02-2006
FsP calculates it based on former fuel performance, so what you think and the average during your flight of fuel consumption may be different.
Re: Fuel! - savage - 04-02-2006
Yes, it's been discussed in details before. The averages are wrong / incorrect / inaccurate. If it can't be accurately calculated, give the
option to disable it - as I said many times before.
I'm not going to bother to sit and fly for 5+ hours on a flight, only to have FSP incorrectly take 300 points from my flight. What's the point of
bothering for 5+ hours with FSP then?
A light penalty can be disables, because pilots are to lazy to press CTRL-L, but a Fuel Penalty, which is calculated incorrectly, can't be
disabled... I'm sorry - it doesn't make sense to me at all.
Re: Fuel! - DBE - 04-02-2006
Quote:savage wrote:
Yes, it's been discussed in details before. The averages are wrong / incorrect / inaccurate. If it can't be accurately calculated, give the
option to disable it - as I said many times before.
I'm not going to bother to sit and fly for 5+ hours on a flight, only to have FSP incorrectly take 300 points from my flight. What's the point of
bothering for 5+ hours with FSP then?
A light penalty can be disables, because pilots are to lazy to press CTRL-L, but a Fuel Penalty, which is calculated incorrectly, can't be
disabled... I'm sorry - it doesn't make sense to me at all.
You're an accountant, right?
Re: Fuel! - DanSteph - 04-02-2006
Can you post the complete report ?
Dan
Re: Fuel! - savage - 05-02-2006
Quote:DBE wrote:
You're an accountant, right?
No, I'm not. It doesn't take much to realise that 11.6 Klbs (my ending fuel), is more than enough to fly for another 45 minutes however.
Therefore, I *did* have enough fuel at landing. Sarcastic idiotic comments that doesn't solve the problem, won't get anyone anywhere. While we're at stupid idiotic comments... Are you a accontant? Is Dan a accountant? Last time I checked, he was a programmer - I don't know about yourself unfortunately.
Dan, complete report:
Quote:Flight SAA192 flight report log Date December 21 2005
Flight ID: SAA192
Pilot: Chris Knipe
Company: South African Airways
Aircraft: 747-400 British Airways
Flight Date: December 21 2005
Departure: 13h52 (11h52 GMT)
Arrival: 21h04 (17h04 GMT)
From: FACT - Cape Town Intl - Cape Town, South Africa
To: FIMP - Mauritius Intl - Mauritius, Mauritius
Nbr of Passengers: 294
Report:
Flight Distance: 2,223 Nm Landing Speed: 140.90 kt
Time Airborne: 04h54:09 Landing Touchdown: -221.54 ft/m (nice)
Flight Time (block): 05h09:35 Landing Pitch: 3.63°
Time On Ground: 00h17:00 Landing Weight: 549530 lbs
Average Speed: 453.19 kt Total Fuel Used: 118449 lbs
Max. Altitude: FL 370 Fuel Not Used: 11614 lbs
Climb Time: 00h24:50 Climb Fuel Used: 21422 lbs
Cruise Time: 04h07:48 Cruise Fuel Used: 89655 lbs
Average Cruise Speed: 474.21 kt (M0.76) Cruise fuel/hour: 21708 lbs (calc)
Descent Time: 00h21:31 Descent Fuel Used: 7370 lbs
Passenger Opinion: Exceptional flight (100%)
-Are pleased to have landed right on schedule.
-Were in a better mood because they had food.
-Were pleased by the music on ground. A very nice addition to their flying experience.
Financial Report:
Ticket Income: +$380,240 (2,223 Nm)
Cargo Income: +$100,017 (29998 lbs)
Services Income: +$743 (0 sandwich 1 hot food 1 drink)
Services Cost: -$3,032 (80% quality)
Fuel Cost: -$80,259 (118449 lbs Jet-A1)
Airport Taxes: -$996 (Heavy Aircraft)
Insurance Costs: -$34,867 (4.32% rate)
Total Real Income: $361,846
Total Income: $18,092,300 (real x50)
Fleet Bonus: $2,332,272 (5 aircraft)
Total Sim Income: $20,424,572 (total income+fleet bonus)
Company Reputation:
Considering that the flight was perfect the ticket price normal, the service price high and the service quality perfect, passengers on this
flight think that your company's reputation should be 90%
Your company reputation is now: 97% (-0.65 decrease)
Overall Flight Result: Perfect
Pilot Bonus points: 575 points
You made a very nice landing. (+50)
Perfect Flight, no problems and very satisfied passengers. (+150)
You landed at the scheduled airport. (+30)
Precise arrival time at destination.(00h05:25 difference) (+100)
Long flight (04h54) without using time acceleration, without any problems and with satisfied passengers. (+245)
Pilot's Penalty points: -300 points
Flight regulations require that you have sufficient fuel reserves upon landing (45 mn); you only had reserves for 00h28 of flight. (-300)
Interesting that the Time is logged right, and the date is incorrect as well... Just saw that now.
Post Edited ( 02-05-06 01:33 )
Re: Fuel! - DBE - 05-02-2006
Quote:savage wrote:
Sarcastic idiotic comments that doesn't solve the problem, won't get anyone anywhere. While we're at stupid idiotic comments... Are you a
accontant?
No: I'm a certified system admin.
And re: the "stupid idiotic comments", I wish you well in your quest. I certainly won't be wasting any more time assisting you....
Re: Fuel! - jetBlue220 - 05-02-2006
Well, your amount of fuel on landing was: 11614 lbs, while your consumption per hour was 21708 lbs. Divide 11614 by 21708, and you'll see what
fraction of an hour you'll have for amount of time remaining. It's clearly less than one hour, and less than 45 minutes, so why are you complaning?
Re: Fuel! - savage - 05-02-2006
Let's look at this then. Same plane, same weight, 11.6 Klbs of fuel. Ran out of fuel, there's not much you can do at 3000ft to recover, esp
not in a 744...
Quote:Flight ID: SAA263
Pilot: Chris Knipe
Company: South African Airways
Aircraft: 747-400 British Airways
Flight Date: December 21 2005
Departure: 11h49 (09h50 GMT)
Arrival: 12h17 (10h17 GMT)
From: FACT - Cape Town Intl - Cape Town, South Africa
To: FAMY - Malmesbury - Malmesbury, South Africa
Nbr of Passengers: 292
Incident Report:
The flaps were extended at excessive airspeed and were damaged. There was an exceptional pilot on board and despite the dire
situation he was able to land the aircraft safely. The Captain has also declared an emergency before landing.
Report:
Flight Distance: 25 Nm Landing Speed: 221.85 kt
Time Airborne: 00h25:51 Landing Touchdown: -23959.21 ft/m
Flight Time (block): 00h26:34 Landing Pitch: -54.36°
Time On Ground: 00h01:30 Landing Weight: 535619 lbs
Average Speed: 60.36 kt Total Fuel Used: 11129 lbs
Max. Altitude: 11023ft Fuel Not Used: 491 lbs
Climb Time: 00h06:11 Climb Fuel Used: 5815 lbs
Cruise Time: 00h14:07 Cruise Fuel Used: 4548 lbs
Average Cruise Speed: 55.14 kt (M0.08) Cruise fuel/hour: 19331 lbs (calc)
Descent Time: 00h05:33 Descent Fuel Used: 766 lbs
Passenger Opinion: Terror and grief. (0%)
-Were in a better mood because they had food.
-Were terrified by the excess G-forces. (+5.22 -0.82).
-Didn't like your acrobatic flight (some excess G-force).
-Were angry because you made what seemed to be a dangerous landing.
-Were terrified by your "dive of death".
-Were terrified because of the problem during flight.
-Were relieved to land safely after an emergency.
-Wonder if they landed or if they crashed (hard landing).
Financial Report:
Ticket Income: +$7,402 (25 Nm)
Cargo Income: +$1,967 (29998 lbs)
Services Income: +$0 (0 sandwich 0 hot food 0 drink)
Services Cost: -$0 (80% quality)
Fuel Cost: -$7,748 (11129 lbs Jet-A1)
Airport Taxes: -$944 (Heavy Aircraft)
Insurance Costs: -$404 (4.32% rate)
Total Real Income: $273
Total Income: $13,650 (real x50)
Fleet Bonus: $0 (5 aircraft ,no flights today)
Total Sim Income: $13,650 (total income+fleet bonus)
Company Reputation:
Considering that the flight was horrible,the tickets price normal,and there was no service aboard,passengers on this flight think that your
company's reputation should be 0%
Your company reputation is now: 88% (-8.82 decrease)
Overall Flight Result: Horrible
Pilot Bonus points: 50 points
There was a problem aboard and you declared an emergency. (+50 only you caused the problem)
Pilot's Penalty points: -2822 points
You didn't land at the scheduled airport FAJS but since you were conducting an emergency you will not receive a penalty.
You made a serious pilot error that resulted in a critical problem. (-800)
Commercial aircraft are not designed for aerobatics, you created excess G-force. (-400)
You made a very hard landing at -23959 ft/mn and the tires sustained damage. (-400)
You declared an emergency but forgot to put your squawk on 7700 emergency code. (-300)
You have exceeded the flap speed limit by 37.24kts (-372)
Parking brake should only be used when that aircraft has stopped, you used it at speed of 160 kt your aircraft was damaged. (-400)
You have exceeded the limit of 250kts below 10000 ft AMSL, but since you were conducting emergency procedures you will not receive a
penalty.
Stalling an aircraft full of passengers even with a problem aboard is NOT a good idea. (-150)
Now. Original report, said I only had 28 minutes of flight time left, with 11.6 Klbs of feul. Yet, I took the same weight & fuel, I TOOK OFF
(107% N1), I climbed to FL110 (95% N1 odd), cruised arround (86% N1), decended to 3000ft, and came short a couple of miles of FACT
to land again. I managed to stay in the air for a whole 25 minutes. For the critics, please keep in mind that climbing and especially a
takeoff, will drain fuel VERY quickly - therefore, I believe if the takeoff could be bypassed, the 25 minutes would have been much longer.
28 Minutes on 11.6 Klbs during cruise / decend (from a extremely high alt, FL370 if my memory serves me right no my original report), vs
25 Minutes for takeoff, climb, short cruise, and short decent? I hardly believe that the 28 minutes is accurate.
The alternative NOW would be to load up FSP, slew to FL370 at the same fuel / weight, and see how long I can stay in the air then with
11.6 Klbs of feul. Unfortunately, I can't slew (oops), but I can almost guarantee you, you can from FL370 cruise down with minimal
engine power, and take much longer than 45 minutes to reach the ground... You come down at -100 or -200 v/s, you aircraft will stay in
the air, and you will be airbourne for 45+ minutes, on 11.6 Klbs of feul. Not that any normal person would do that, the point it, it is
possibleto be able to fly for more than 45 minutes, with 11.6 Klbs of feul.
Re: Fuel! - jetBlue220 - 05-02-2006
Of course it is possible, obviously. But, the consumption over the time of your five hour flight was 21708 lbs. per hour, and FSP uses that number to
calculate how much fuel you should need in reserve. So, you should have 16281 lbs left, based on your original flight, to meet the 45 minute reserve
exactly.
Now, how do you propose FSP calculates the time remaining for fuel, other than this method? The best and most logical way is to do it based on your
overall consumption for the entire flight. Do you want numbers somehow programmed into the game to say how much fuel is sufficient upon landing for
every single aircraft? That's impractical, I think. We all deal with the reserve time problem being based on consumption, even on the short flights
(like your second one right above) where it becomes even more of an issue. How to solve this? Just add extra fuel. Have more than enough so that you
don't encounter problems like this. On both of your above flights, I doubt that you were very close to a 100% capacity on your flight, so just add
more fuel. It's not like you're going to be paying for that extra fuel you have there, it's just an extra precaution so you don't get the -300 penalty
causing you to come on here and complain.
Re: Fuel! - savage - 05-02-2006
Exactly my problem. THE CONSUMPTION IS WRONG - especially on short flights!
First flight was not even 1/3 of the max fuel load. And why should I over load my aircraft with fuel to please FSP? FSP is a module for a
game, the module should add to my enjoyment - I should not need to add to the module's enjoyment.
Load more fuel, and you are over MTOW. AGAIN, you get penelized for being over MTOW (not to mention it's even more unrealistic
and 'dangerous' as far as 'as real as it gets' go), again you cannot disable the over MTOW penalty. If you really want to get into this, I can
do a 14hr long haul for you, be 109% / 110% over MTOW at take off due to fuel, and still land with about 11.6 Klbs of fuel in my tank - then I
normally get a over MTOW penalty, AND a fuel penalty...
I'm not asking for a magical redo of the entire fuel system. My point is, OBVIOUSLY it is not working as well as it should - you said so
yourself even now. Now, WHY can a light penalty be disabled, because a pilot is to lazy to press CTRL-L to turn on his landing lights, but
a fuel penalty (to which you also now agree - is not the friendliest thing ever), cannot be disabled? What makes the one 'more realistic',
or 'more important' than the other???
THAT is my issue here. And IMHO, it is a very valid issue....
Re: Fuel! - WBHoenig - 05-02-2006
a) Please don't insult those who are tring to help you.
b) I think I might agree with you that FsP should calculate only cruise average usage when accounting for this.
Post Edited ( 02-05-06 03:07 )
Re: Fuel! - savage - 05-02-2006
WBHoenig,
a) If you're refering to DBE... Point noted. I stand by my comments however if you provoke, take what comes your way when the provoktion
comes back to you (as the ol saying goes, do unto others as you want to be done unto yourself). If you are refering to anything else I said,
please feel free to point it out so that I can explain myself or apologise where requried.
b) As stated in my previous post, it's not my business as a user to be bothered really by how, or how not it should be calculated. That is a
issue for the developers and I'm sure they have valid reasons for choosing the model that they did. My point however, is that there is
grounds to disable these penalties, just as there are relavant or irrelavent reasons to disable other penalties...
I still pose my original question... Why can a light penalty be disabled because a) a pilot can not press CTRL-L, or b) the plane does not
support xyz feature, but a fuel calculation, which is not accurate (due to what ever reason), cannot be disabled? That whole model,
simply does not make sense to me - I'm sorry if I don't get it. And I'm taking lights as a example, I'm sure I can dig out even
more 'common' penalties that can be disabled simply because of 'convinience', rather than problems. Here, we have a problem - yet,
absolutely nothing is done about it...
Re: Fuel! - WBHoenig - 05-02-2006
a) I was referring to you
b) In the real world, you have a FO to handle minor functions such as lights. However, your FO cannot alter the plane's fuel systems or how fuel is
calculated. Get my point?
EDIT:
@ Dan for closing the topic. This reminds me of olden days with another... erm, person.Post Edited ( 02-05-06 05:49 )
Re: Fuel! - savage - 05-02-2006
Are these also handled by the FO?
DisableRollOutsideLandingStrip =0; // disable the roll or landing outside landing strip penalty
DisableGearSpeedLimit =0; // disable gear speed penalty
DisableFlapSpeedLimit =0; // disable flap speed penalty
DisableOverspeedLimit =0; // disable overspeed penalty
DisableGLimit =0; // disable G penalty
DisableBankLimit =0; // disable bank penalty
DisableTimeAccelerationCheck =0; // disable time acceleration reduced bonus
DisableMaxPowerPenaltyWithBrake =0; // disable the penalty for pushing max power with parking brake.
Last time I checked, Captain did the landings... Not sure some of the others is even a option in the real world - they'll destroy the plane
(just like running out of fuel - what a co-incidence).
Told ya lights was merely a example....